Time to Hire

EP 26 Mindset Transformation: Kristen Fox on Conquering Leadership Challenges with Mental Fitness

• Recruitment Process Outsourcing Association (RPOA)

Share episode

In this episode of Time to Hire, Lamees Abourahma welcomes mental fitness expert Kristen Fox, Practice Leader at Talent Rise, alongside Suzie Mitchell, SVP of Client Delivery at Broadleaf Results. Fox reveals how brain training transforms leadership effectiveness in talent acquisition. The conversation delivers strategies to overcome negative thought patterns and build resilience.

The discussion provides actionable insights on:
- Convert saboteur thinking to sage perspective
- Develop mental resilience
- Apply brain-training techniques
- Build empathetic leadership approaches

Mitchell shares firsthand experience implementing Fox's mental fitness strategies, demonstrating practical applications for talent professionals navigating recruitment challenges.

Contact the RPO Association at info@rpoassociation.org

Join the RPO Association today to stay ahead of the latest trends and best practices in talent acquisition, achieve your professional goals, and benefit from improved business performance.


Follow Kristen Fox on Linkedin

Follow Suzie Mitchell on Linkedin

Follow Lamees Abourahma on Linkedin

Follow the RPOA on LinkedIn

Go here for more information about TalentRise

Go here for more information about Broadleaf Results

Go here for more information about the RPOA

Whether you're a seasoned talent acquisition professional or just starting in the field, "Time to Hire" provides an invaluable platform to expand your knowledge, learn from industry leaders, and stay up-to-date with the rapidly changing world of recruitment.



Kristen Fox

Thank you, Lamees. It's been wonderful to work with you and the RPOA. For those who are just meeting us for the first time, I'm Kristen, and in today's scenario, I'm framing myself as the coach. It's important to note that Suzie and I have a working relationship between two sister companies, but we've also had the opportunity to be both coach and client together. We're excited to help walk through the concept of mental fitness coaching and mental fitness as a whole, but through two very different perspectives: one being the coach, and the other being the client, which is Suzie. Suzie, would you like to introduce yourself?


Suzie Mitchell: 

Thank you so much. Again, it's my pleasure to be here today with everybody. I'm Suzie Mitchell, Senior Vice President of Client Delivery at Broadleaf. From a perspective standpoint, I started working with Kristen probably about 18 months or two years ago when I wanted to pursue executive coaching. We spent six months together in a really wonderful experience. Those six months have influenced something I use almost every single day as a leader. Since then, I've been promoted into other roles, but I'm really excited to be here and talk about my experience with mental fitness, executive coaching, and working with Kristen. We're really excited to have everybody here today.

Kristen Fox

Awesome. So we welcome everyone. You're welcome to chime in and share your name and location in the chat. Let me give some background on who we are. Suzie, would you like to give an overview?

Suzie Mitchell

Sure. Aileron Companies is our umbrella organization, and Kristen and I work within its five different companies: Broadleaf, Acara, TalentRise, Viaduct, and Loom. Let me briefly explain each:

Broadleaf focuses on managed recruiting services, specializing in MSP, payrolling, and independent contractor work. Acara concentrates on contract staffing, direct placements, and RPO services. TalentRise, where Kristen works, specializes in executive recruiting solutions, coaching, and leadership, with Kristen leading the executive coaching, leadership assessments, and organizational development division. Viaduct focuses on startup-based solutions, and Loom handles IT-based outsourcing. These five companies together make up Aileron.

Kristen Fox

We share this context because it's important to the story and our conversation today. Each of you came here for a reason, and I'm sure there was an innate curiosity about the mental fitness concept and why we need to think about our mind as a muscle. Why do we have to train our brain to do things that we maybe also do for our physical body? Thinking about your brain as a muscle and learning how to sharpen specific muscles is our core focus today.

We'll be learning about three core muscles that will help you develop a better and healthier relationship with yourself. We know that most likely everyone here is doing something great for other people, whether it's your family or your coworkers, but I hope you'll take this time over the next hour to nurture yourself and give yourself the attention and care needed to think about these core concepts.

Fundamentally, we're integrating Suzie's feedback into this journey because many of the things we're discussing are conceptual in nature. These are big picture ideas, and sometimes it's hard to connect them to real life. Suzie represents a real-life application of this work, and she's going to speak from a place of vulnerability and trust with this audience about the types of learnings she discovered through this journey.

Kristen Fox: 

Let me start with what I hope is an obvious statement: everyone here is awesome. Every person matters. Each of you, by some great miracle, has shown up in this moment to learn about this topic. Behind all of that is a really great human, and I want to acknowledge and celebrate the humanity sitting in this circle. I hope you all can feel that.

I also want to recognize that when I say everyone's awesome, some of you might physically roll your eyes or shrug your shoulders. You might think, "Oh, she's just blowing smoke." If you had any gut reaction to that statement about your own amazingness, it's likely because there's a negative thought in your mind saying "I'm not enough" or "I'm not worthy" or something similar. The truth is that there's a detractor living in our brain, and our brain operates in two core spaces: the saboteur, which we'll learn about – that negative energy, that judge, that inner critic that tells us "no, no, no" – and the sage, which is that brilliant and bright part of yourself, that desire to live authentically and be your best self.

As people leaders and talent leaders, you're finding the sage in your talent every day. You're trying to decipher how amazing each person is and whether they fit a particular job. But what we sometimes don't realize is how much negative chatter sits between that deciphering, and today is about learning how to navigate that space in our brain – between these two ears – of both saboteur and sage.

Mental fitness is really about your capacity to shift from negative to positive mindset. As human beings, we experience a wide range of emotions – positive, negative, and neutral. But we need to learn how to shift out of those negative feelings into something more positive. That's the act of mental fitness. It's actively choosing to take our brains to the spaces where they're best served, because we typically know that negative thoughts don't usually create great outcomes. When we develop this muscle and build this skill, we see huge impacts on our performance, wellbeing, and the quality of our relationships.

I'm sure each of you, as leaders, can recall times when a conversation derailed, or when you became so upset or judgmental about something – perhaps thinking "I can't believe you did that" or "I can't believe you would send that email to that client." Often, these responses become barriers to deepening relationships and ensuring quality work. We're going to discover and explore how to address this.

Kristen Fox

Let me introduce you to the foundation of this concept. The work we're discussing is brain-based, built from fantastic research conducted by Sherzad Shamin and Positive Intelligence. This research sits at the intersection of four major schools of thought: cognitive behavioral psychology, positive psychology, performance sciences, and neuroscience. The science itself, Positive Intelligence or PQ, sits at the center of all these pieces.

The science points to a concept called factor analysis. To understand factor analysis, think about colors: if we distill every myriad of color in the world down to its most pure elements, we know there are three main colors – red, yellow, and blue – that can create thousands or millions of different options. Similarly in leadership, I can provide various tools like how to have crucial conversations, how to build atomic habits, how to drive a decision-making matrix, or how to implement EOS. However, until we get down to the factor analysis and address the core issues, we may not be able to deploy these tools effectively.

The question becomes: how do we actually move from negative to positive thinking? I can say all the right things that perhaps a TikTok video suggested for having a performance-based conversation, but the moment someone doesn't respond as expected, I might lose my composure. We need to learn the inner narrative, the work inside ourselves that can actually move us from negative to positive. Is this making sense to everyone?

When we think about factor analysis, the research identifies three core muscles that we need to learn. We'll spend the next 40 minutes touching on these three muscles. We don't expect you to become experts by the end of this session, but we want you to understand:

1. How to catch your Saboteurs - these are the self-limiting beliefs that prevent you from living up to your fullest potential. Once we can recognize them, we can interrupt them and stop the cycle of negative thought.

2. How to energize your sage brain - this involves standing in your fullest potential and most authentic self. Sage can be connected to spirituality or simply to authenticity. Ask yourself: who would you be if you weren't always judging yourself? Often, it's that playful child that lives somewhere inside your brain.

3. How to use your sage powers - these are specific tools to shift out of negativity and build core mental muscles.

Kristen Fox: 

I've introduced two major concepts in the last minute. First, there are 10 saboteurs within the framework of mental fitness. Second, there are five sage powers. Let me explain how these play out in your brain.

When we're in a negative space, we're accessing the limbic part of our brain, which puts us in a responsive and reactive state. You've heard of fight, flight, and freeze – some people also include fawn. We're reacting from a place of stress and dysregulation, and this is where our saboteurs emerge. 

Conversely, sage thinking activates a different part of your brain – the prefrontal cortex – where empathy circuitry resides. We all recognize this intuitively because we never feel good when we're yelling at someone saying, "Can you just listen to me?" Usually, when one side is activated, the other side shuts down. If we only feed into the negative, we lose our ability to access empathy, creativity, curiosity, and other valuable mental muscles.

Saboteurs are predominantly motivated by negative emotions: fear, guilt, inequity, insecurity, shame. Sometimes we direct these at ourselves, sometimes they're internally motivated. I was just talking to someone earlier today about recognizing my FOMO and when I need to calm that down – we normalize these feelings in our language. There are also positive emotions: deep empathy, passion, curiosity, purpose. These qualities are abundant, not constrained.

I've worked with CEOs and leaders across the nation who have generated incredible success, often motivated by fear or insecurity to accomplish a lot. I've met plenty of people who have everything they could want, yet don't feel happy. We've all experienced getting that next promotion or job, only to find ourselves thinking, "Oh, this didn't make me happy." But what we know about sage is that when you're making decisions from your sage brain – your prefrontal cortex – you're building sustained happiness. This is about achieving success without pain. It's a different concept, one that we recognize when we feel it, something we're often searching for, but we tend to use negative motivators to get there instead of amplifying our sage brain.

Let's think about negative emotions like physical pain. When you experience physical pain, it's a learning signal – it tells you something's wrong. If you put your hand on a hot stove, your body immediately reacts to the heat and moves away from the pain. We want you to think about emotional pain in the same way. Research shows that negative emotions register in our bodies much like physical pain – the same receptors are triggered. The key is learning how to recognize when there's a negative emotion, define it, and move through it. The fundamental takeaway is that any negative emotion connects to a saboteur.

Now, let's dive into catching your Saboteurs. This is where deep self-reflection happens. There's one universal saboteur that every one of us experiences daily: the judge. Suzie, would you like to share your thoughts on the judge?

Suzie Mitchell: 

Yes, the judge can be exceptionally powerful. For me, it was primarily the judge of myself, and when you're continuously doing that self-judgment, it certainly affects how you show up in front of other people. While I'm sure I've experienced the other forms of judge, self-judgment was the most prominent and really pulled me down.

Kristen Fox: 

Yes, we find that's common with high-achieving leaders, people who are leading others. There's always another voice in the room – you're doing the task, but there's also a voice saying, "No, you shouldn't have done that" or "You need to improve it." That's the energy of the judge. The truth is, there's not a single human who doesn't have this universal saboteur.

When we move to the next slide, we'll discuss nine other saboteurs. These saboteurs are unique to each person - the degree to which you have one versus another varies. What's important to understand is that each of these saboteurs originates from core strengths.

Let's take the controller saboteur as an example. The controller's core strength lies in being incredibly organized, available, and capable of building plans. They have a clear vision of how to execute a plan and confidence in their ability to deliver - which is wonderful. However, the challenge arises when you overplay that controlling skill. You might become so fixated on people following your exact method at each step that you lose sight of the bigger picture and begin to dominate others' actions. You start believing you have more control over others and outcomes than you actually do, which ultimately limits your effectiveness. Think about micromanagement - we all know how it feels when someone monitors every single step, creating an environment that lacks empowerment and prevents others from shining.

Another common saboteur among leaders is the hyper achiever. We live in a highly productive society that celebrates achievement - we often normalize prioritizing work over other aspects of life with statements like "I worked over the weekend" or similar badges of honor. While having goals and the confidence to achieve them is wonderful - setting ambitious, meaningful targets is fantastic - the problem arises with hyper achievement. When you hyper achieve, you compromise other aspects of life. You might struggle to be present in the moment or neglect other dimensions of your life, becoming so focused on the goal that you're willing to make excessive personal sacrifices. The particular challenge for hyper achievers is that they typically move straight to a new goal upon achieving one, never allowing themselves to feel satisfied or to truly enjoy their accomplishments. This creates a challenging cycle of constantly pursuing unattainable levels of achievement - it's not that you can't achieve the goals, but rather that you never allow yourself to rest and appreciate what you've accomplished.

Lamees Abourahma

Kristen, I don't know if you're planning to cover this, but I'm thinking about impostor syndrome, which we encounter frequently, especially among women. Which saboteur would correspond to impostor syndrome?

Kristen Fox

That's such a great question, because there are multiple ways to approach it when we consider impostor syndrome in the context of saboteurs. At its core, impostor syndrome stems from feeling inadequate in your current environment - fundamentally saying "I don't deserve to be here" in this role, circle, or position. What's interesting is that multiple saboteurs can drive this feeling, depending on who you are.

For example, if my insecurities are driven by hyper vigilance, I might perceive taking on a new role or entering a new circle as too risky, which feeds that fear of inadequacy. Alternatively, if I'm looking at it from a stickler perspective - where stickler represents perfectionism and detail orientation - the impostor syndrome often manifests as feeling like I don't know enough yet.

I like to think of impostor syndrome as marking the beginning of the learning curve. Usually, you've just pushed yourself out of your comfort zone into a brand new environment where you genuinely feel uncomfortable. When you put yourself in an uncomfortable spot, that's fundamentally the space of deep growth - you can't grow from comfort. If your comfort zone is here and you're aspiring to be there, and you've just leveled up, you have to learn how to make this new level comfortable. That's where impostor syndrome lives.

The challenge comes when specific saboteurs interfere with this growth process. For instance, with the stickler saboteur, my need to be perfect or immediately know everything could be what's pulling me back from getting comfortable in the new situation, making me want to default to where I'm most comfortable.

The key insight about impostor syndrome is twofold: First, understanding your unique mix of saboteurs through root cause analysis can help you address it. Second, we need to acknowledge how challenging it is to move out of our comfort zone. When we try new things and stick our neck out, it never feels right the first time because we're growing. Think about public speaking - the first time I did a webinar, I was much more nervous. This time, I'm more comfortable. When I speak at an 800-person event over the summer, I'll be nervous again because that's a big deal. It's about learning new muscles and growing into new challenges.

Kristen Fox

Now let's take a break from discussing negative feelings and introduce a way to shift from negative to positive feelings. We're going to introduce what we call PQ Reps, or a sage activation technique. The idea is that we need to move ourselves out of negative space, and we do this through mini-meditations that help us shift from one space to another.

I'd like to invite everyone, if you're willing, to close your eyes. I can't see everyone's faces, but I hope you'll participate. With your eyes closed, I want you to take three delicious breaths. Allow yourself to breathe in all that nourishing energy and exhale any negativity sitting in your mind or body.

Take another deep breath.

Now focus on the sound of my voice. Perhaps pay attention to the sounds around you as I'm speaking. Notice the cadence or accent I might have. Notice the energy around you - there might be a sound outside your window or office. Become hyper-focused on just paying attention to that sound.

Now bring that same focus to the sound of your breath as you breathe easily. Notice the sound of your inhale and your exhale.

When you're ready, you can open your eyes.

Does anyone feel slightly more centered? The truth is that as leaders, we can't control what might put us in a negative space. It could be an email, a look in a board meeting, or someone making a comment under their breath as you walk by. We don't have the luxury of parking these emotions and pretending they don't exist until we can do a yoga class at the end of the day to de-stress. Most people don't have those resources. You can't always just take a walk or get fresh air when you need it. What we need to learn is how to breathe, how to stop, how to integrate just a small pause that allows us to shake off negative energy.

Kristen Fox: 

PQ offers multiple approaches for this practice. Sometimes it can be as simple as staring into space. One of my favorite techniques, when I'm feeling dysregulated or highly stressed, is to look at a photo on my phone. Most likely, that photo is of someone you love - perhaps a person, a beautiful vista from a trip, or a beloved pet. If you spend just 10 seconds fully focused on that image, it actually triggers the receptors in your brain that create reward, dopamine, and joy. You can essentially guide your body into a calmer state just by connecting with something you love.

There are many other ways to achieve this state. While you probably won't howl like a wolf in your office, you can certainly shake or stretch. You might choose to look intently at an object. The key concept here is learning the discipline of transition - how to move from one mental space to another.

Suzie, when we think about your journey of moving from negative to positive energy, we measured how often you experienced negative versus positive mindsets. When you first started with us, you were operating in a positive mindset about 63% of the time, with 37% in that negative space. Where are you at today?

Suzie Mitchell

 I'm in a totally different space now. That's not to say there aren't days when I'm working through exercises and trying to navigate new and different situations. But overall, I feel less anxious and stressed. I think part of it is feeling more familiar with my surroundings - I know what to expect from the leadership. Working through the sage techniques and PQ Reps definitely helps when I'm dealing with something specifically challenging.

The breathing exercise works wonderfully. We'll talk about it more later, but the concept of imagining someone's inner child has been absolutely transformative for me - I use that exercise regularly. It's about how you use your sage powers, and for me personally, it's about recognizing when I'm not in that sage state. No matter what the situation, I know I need to prepare and spend time working on myself beforehand so that I'm showing up as an effective leader.

Kristen Fox

I love what you said there, Suzie, because I think it highlights a common trap for leaders - reacting immediately to situations rather than giving themselves grace to pause. It's okay to say, "I need a moment" - almost like saying "Mommy needs a timeout," that kind of energy. I'm not disengaging, but I'm ensuring I can show up as my best self.

So now we're going to transition to discussing how to shift from negative to positive feelings. We're going to introduce what we call the PQ Reps, or sage activation technique. The idea here is that we need to move ourselves out of negative spaces using mini-meditations to shift from one state to another.

Let's talk about what sage really is - it emerges when you're in a state of peace and calm, when you're able to see the big picture with clear-headed focus. We're going to introduce one key tool called sage perspective, which is fundamental to understanding sage. Let's start with a discussion: What makes being in your field particularly challenging right now?

Lamees Abourahma

I'll share something I heard from an RPOA member a long time ago. Talent Acquisition and recruiting is about working with people, and as he said, it's people that sometimes make things difficult.

Kristen Fox: 

Yes, if we take the perspective that this is hard, what else comes up? I appreciate that insight.

Suzie Mitchell

I think the market and economy feels unstable, which makes it difficult for executives to make forecasting decisions or understand what jobs will be open in the TA industry. Are people still getting laid off? It's really a complex situation right now.

Kristen Fox

Yes, to be a TA leader today involves multiple challenges. There's intense pressure for excellence and great hires. The cost of talent is skyrocketing, yet there's still a huge talent gap - we can't get the right people into the right jobs in certain areas. We're seeing competition mentioned in the chat, which is very true. People are stressed. As Suzie mentioned, there's also this uncertainty around the industry and what federal pressures might mean for the commercial landscape.

Lamees Abourahma

Suzie, would you like to share your thoughts?

Suzie Mitchell

Yes, let's consider what's rewarding about this work. Helping people find their dream job is incredibly fulfilling. Often you'll find someone who has been with a company for 10 or 12 years, then resigned, and their next job isn't quite right. When you can help them find that perfect fit - knowing they'll spend 40-plus hours a week with that work family - that feels really meaningful.

Kristen Fox

Yes, exactly. We're seeing comments in the chat about the relationships being built and the joy of helping others. Just this week in a meeting, we had a team member share that the offer she made for a new leader represented a 40% increase from their previous salary. Think about the life-changing impact that kind of compensation increase has on a family and their quality of life. To be able to change someone's entire trajectory through one job placement - that's remarkable.

Suzie Mitchell

It's truly game-changing. Regardless of what someone was making before, a 40% increase transforms lives.

Kristen Fox

Absolutely game-changing. And we get to work with great clients...

Suzie Mitchell

Who are facing the same situations we are. It leads to really collaborative, consultative conversations about the market, operations, and people.

Kristen Fox

This brings us to an important question: of these perspectives we've explored - both the challenges and the rewards - which one is true?

Kristen Fox

Here's the key insight: whatever you choose to believe becomes your truth. That's how our brains work, especially in today's world where we're processing information at incredible rates. Where do you want to direct your energy? If you choose to believe the world is falling apart, that becomes the reality you create in your life. If you believe in possibility, in hope, in finding new paths and ways to unite as people - that shapes a different reality.

This is what sage perspective means. It's not about blindly accepting circumstances, but rather recognizing the gift within any outcome or situation we face. The challenges in talent acquisition remain real, but if I as a leader can identify the gifts, the opportunities for growth, the things we can improve - if we can find opportunity within complexity - that's sage perspective. That's what we hope to cultivate through this journey: the ability to find the gift in any circumstance.

Lamees Abourahma

I want to make a quick comment. This reminds me of my business coach - when I would share a problem with her, she would rephrase it as an opportunity. It's about seeing that glass as half full versus half empty.

Kristen Fox

Absolutely. Now, let's move on to discussing Suzie's sage powers. You've used several sage powers, Suzie. Could you walk us through which ones have particularly resonated with you?

Suzie Mitchell

Three in particular stand out. The first is about finding the gift in every situation. That's really challenging because sometimes you're thinking, "How can there possibly be a gift in this? How is there anything positive or gift-worthy here?" What you discover is that sometimes the gift is simply knowledge - knowing more today about this situation or how to handle this person than you did yesterday. That knowledge helps you prepare for the next meeting or conversation. I was trying very hard to find some grand gift in every situation, but I've learned that sometimes knowledge itself is a significant gift, and that's okay.

The second power, empathizing through the concept of the inner child, has been a transformative learning experience that I use frequently. When dealing with a difficult person, I might imagine their inner child and think about that child in a different light. Picture that three or four-year-old who was jovial, silly, happy, understanding, friendly, more open-minded, someone who listened and wasn't trying to be mean to anybody. This helps ground me when preparing to deal with someone who might be more challenging or someone I struggle to communicate with. People aren't intentionally mean or difficult to work with - sometimes life circumstances shape them that way. Taking a step back to think about them differently makes moving forward easier.

I keep a picture on my desk of my sister and me when we were very young. I often look at it to remember that everyone starts from the same place - we were all born happy and innocent.

The third power, the Explorer (represented by Piglet, my absolute favorite - my sister calls me Piglet), helps me think about how I want to show up personally in situations. I want to be someone who comes across as friendly and open-minded, someone people can talk to and have open communication with. For me, it's about being the kind of person and leader who brings their best self forward.

Kristen Fox

I love that perspective, Suzie. While we could explore this topic for hours, I'm mindful that we're approaching the end of our time. Let me conclude by introducing what we call an operating system. If you take away and implement this system today, there are four key steps:

1. Stop when you feel a negative emotion and recognize that you're in saboteur mode.
2. Perform some PQ reps to calm yourself down and center yourself using whatever method works for you.
3. Move into sage perspective by asking yourself: what could be the potential gift or opportunity in this situation?
4. If time permits, explore additional sage powers that we can delve into another time.

These steps form the fundamental framework of this program. What makes this approach particularly powerful is its practicality - you can implement these steps in real-time, during challenging moments in your leadership journey. The key is remembering that every difficult situation presents an opportunity for growth and transformation, provided we approach it with the right mindset and tools.